Transcript
Season 3. Episode 17. How Can We Evolve Spiritually?
SPEAKERS
Pandora Villasenor, Molly LaCroix
Pandora Villasenor 00:00
Do you wish to evolve spiritually to get from a transactional relationship with God and other people to a deeper connection? Today's guest can help. Molly Lacroix obtained her master's in marriage and family therapy at a seminary. And she writes about the intersection of faith and personal well being. In this episode, she shares about being diagnosed with breast cancer in April of 2020. And how she relied on spiritual practices to overcome the challenges of dealing with this in the middle of a pandemic, including dealing with people who tried to minimize her experience in order to protect themselves from her vulnerability. In the middle of it all, Molly published her book, restoring relationship, transforming fear into love through connection, you're going to want to hear Molly's tools to help you better love yourself and reflect on your core identity as an image bearer of God.
Molly LaCroix 00:57
And I kept seeing people who'd had been in seasons of distress, and sought out support from their spiritual community and were either not helped at best and harmed at worst.
Pandora Villasenor 01:20
You are listening to the all gifts Podcast, where we unwrap some of life's most painful topics to find the hidden gift within. I coach people helping them discover ways to transform their challenges into gifts. I'm your host and author of the all gifts memoir, Pandora Villasenor. Thank you for listening to the all gifts Podcast. I am so excited today to have this conversation with my guest, Molly Lacroix. Molly, please take a moment and say hi to our listeners and tell them a little bit about yourself. Well, hello, it's such a pleasure to be having this conversation with Pandora and, and then with all of you.
Molly LaCroix 02:03
I am a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist in private practice. And I got my master's in marriage and family therapy at a seminary. So I've had a longtime interest in the integration of secular theories of psychotherapy, and biblical and theological truth. And so that's, you know, my lens. That's how I understand humanity with those two lenses brought together. And last year, I published my first book, self published, and it was a great experience. It's titled Restoring Relationship, Transforming Fear into Love Through Connection. Other than my professional life, I've been married to my husband, Bob for 39 years, and we have two children. Our daughter is married and the mother of a two year old. And our son is also married and the parent of a five month old. So my new favorite thing is being Mini to my grandchildren, which is awesome.
Pandora Villasenor 03:12
Oh, I agree. My favorite thing is being Grammy to my two year old grandson. I love, it's so fun.
Molly LaCroix 03:21
It's so so fun.
Pandora Villasenor 03:22
How often do you get to see them?
Molly LaCroix 03:23
Every couple months I like to, other than during 2020, with the exception of last year, and I like to see them every couple of months, which is pretty easy. Generally, yeah. Either they come to us or we come to them.
Pandora Villasenor 03:42
Now you're based in Oregon. So you're on the West Coast as well. So it's probably pretty easy to get around and up and down the coast. So other than when there's a global pandemic.
Molly LaCroix 03:52
Exactly. With the exception of that.
Pandora Villasenor 03:54
Yes. So tell us a little bit about what resonates with you in this idea of how challenges can be a gift. Tell us what challenge came to mind for you when we talked about being on this podcast?
Molly LaCroix 04:06
Well, last year, in the midst of the pandemic, I was diagnosed with breast cancer. And it was such an interesting juxtaposition of events. Because it was in early April. And the . . . we were still early in the pandemic and the reality of it was still kind of like waves hitting you know, the nightly reports of the death toll mounting and the impact on people's lives in all dimensions from children being out of school and exposed to greater amounts of domestic violence and financial insecurity and food insecurity and elderly people alone and oh my gosh, you know, it was just this . . . we you know, the waves were still hitting us and, and in the midst of that, actually during Holy Week, I was diagnosed with breast cancer.
Pandora Villasenor 05:01
What was that like for you? having gone through what we're all going through in that time? Exactly. You described it so well, and then to be hit with something like that. How did that feel?
Molly LaCroix 05:15
Oh, well, it was. My initial reaction was shock. as so many women have been on this journey, when I, you know, the journey starts with some tests that show something suspicious. And I was largely being told by my doctors that that was probably nothing. I've heard multiple times that it was probably nothing. But it was enough of something that they needed to do a biopsy, but they were still saying probably nothing. And so when the surgeon called, and gave me the diagnosis, it was it was shocking, because I hadn't been prepared to hear that I had breast cancer. I've been prepared to be, you know, to hear, guess what, just like we thought it's nothing.
Pandora Villasenor 06:01
And then when you went to those doctors, okay, so I'm thinking back to that time, you know, in the stories that I heard people going into, and my husband who's had some medical issues, I can't go with him. What was that like to go through all of that? And I'm imagining you weren't able to have your husband with you, you weren't able to have? Right, so what was that like?
Molly LaCroix 06:23
Yeah, it was hard. It, that was a piece of the impact. And I really physically I'm getting chills, as I remember the first time that I went to the cancer center. And nobody has a goal of being a patient walking into a building labeled Cancer Center. And it was a bit of a ghost town because of COVID. And, you know, you've probably, you might have been in medical offices in this context, you know, most of the furniture has been kind of moved around, and, and nothing looks like it usually would. And I didn't know where I was going. And you know, you kind of go through the initial screening to just be able to go into the building. And then I was walking around these empty hallways, I really didn't know where I was going. And my heart was pounding. And I was, I was scared, I was there. I didn't have to go physically to the cancer center until I was going for radiation treatment. So when I had my I had a biopsy, and then I had a follow up surgery. And those were at an outpatient surgery center. And again, my husband just dropped me off. But the impact was less in those settings, because they were a little more familiar. I'd been in outpatient surgery centers, I actually worked in health care administration in my previous life. So those settings were familiar to me, but boy walking into that Cancer Center and not knowing where I was going. And that that was really hard. And the first person that I, after checking in, that I saw during my, my first visit was their social worker. And she she immediately minimized what I was there for. Oh, you don't have . . . this isn't . . . This isn't a big deal. You know, you don't have to have very many ratios, radiation treatments, this will be over before you know it. Oh, boy, that did not sit well with me.
Pandora Villasenor 08:28
Yeah, tell us more about that. How did that make you? Yeah, how did you process that?
Molly LaCroix 08:35
Well, I processed it by shutting down in the in the moment I shut down, there was no way I was going to tell her anything now, and I was kind of quickly kind of pulled out the I'm the therapist card. Um, and, you know, to reassure her that, you know, like, I, I knew, you know, I was I was good. I didn't need any support. And the fact is, of course, like any other person in that setting, I did need support. And, and this was really, I felt like a divinely orchestrated synergistic moment. Because when this was all transpiring, I was writing the chapter of my book that is titled, The Emotional Response to Physical and Mental Illness. Wow. Yeah. And I was living it. I, I couldn't make that up. I mean, I was literally writing that chapter. And, and one of the things I learned from from that social worker and many other health care providers, other friends, other family members, is how quickly people work to minimize the impact of something vulnerable. You know, whether that vulnerability and I knew this, theoretically, I knew this in my work with clients, but this was personal experience with it. Yeah, so so that was pretty impactful.
Pandora Villasenor 10:07
You said in on your website, you said the strategies used in an effort to be helpful, often break relationship because they are rooted in fear, not love. And then you go on to say that it's a fear of vulnerability. When you say that, do you mean a fear of their own vulnerability or the fear of your vulnerability when you're in that setting?
Molly LaCroix 10:29
The interesting thing is, it's both. So the reason that we shut down someone else's vulnerability is because we are afraid of connecting with our own. And so there's always both both going on, you know, there's always what's going on inside of me, as well as what is this other person experiencing? My, my response to another person is always about what's also going on inside me.And so and, and yes, you know, and one of the strategies that minimizes vulnerability is to minimize it, to minimize the impact of a particular diagnosis or illness or, or any challenge, whatever, whether it's health related or not.
Pandora Villasenor 11:23
Yeah, I find this so true. You know, my husband just got over Coronavirus and well, it's so interesting, your background being both like secular therapy background plus the seminary background, the Christian perspective, because while he was going through Coronavirus, it brought up so much anxiety for him, and it really, it really triggered panic attacks. And so suddenly, we're dealing with not just the physical aspect of things, but then the mental health aspect of things. And people were trying to be so helpful, but it reminded me of, you know, Job's friends in the Bible. I mean, I was hearing my husband, on some of these conversations on, he would have it on like speakerphone, and these men just like to discipling him and like, "you just need to pray. And you just need to like, you know, if you really believe the Bible," like all these things, people were saying, and I, I'm like, you know, I'm in the background going, "put that on mute." So I can tell, you need to get him off the phone, get off the phone, you know, because I know that people have their hearts in the right place. But people could not, some people, I shouldn't say all people, I mean, we have some really great support in our lives. But the people who I saw doing that were exactly that Molly, they just could not stand the vulnerability of where he was. And so they were, right. . . They were minimizing it with religiousness. With religiosity. Right?
Molly LaCroix 12:47
Well, it's one of our favorite creative strategies as Christians, you know, we'll throw a verse at someone or, yeah, and you know, it's the whole first part of my book. And actually, the inspiration for my book, was encountering things like that Pandora where, you know, because I trained at a seminary, a lot of my clients are Christians, they seek out someone that they feel, will respect their faith and understand their faith. And, I kept seeing people who'd had been in seasons of distress, and sought out support from their spiritual community. And we're either not helped at best and harmed at worst. And again, it's so you look at Job, you know. And that got, that got me thinking and talking to other colleagues, like, do you see this too? Well, yes, we do. And long story short, the first part of my book, I look at common, what I call problematic responses to distress. And, you know, again, through the lens of the kind of psychotherapy model that I use in my work, to help people really understand and unpack how much these responses are rooted in fear. And again, I mean, as you said, most people are very well intentioned, and they've never learned any other approach. They don't know that, for instance, advice giving is often not helpful. Right? And you know, that what people really need is connection. And, and these well intentioned strategies block the connection, they block the ability to just be with somebody and be present and open hearted and curious and, this is, and, you know, the, the verse that's just brings it so visually to mind is Jesus in Matthew 11:28, "Come to me all you who are weary and burdened, take my yoke upon you and learn from me," you know, he walks beside us, he's, you know, and and that's so powerful to remember what He offers his presence.
Pandora Villasenor 15:02
So true, I, I do think that we're coming into a place in our own faith walks, my husband and I, as well as many people that we know, I think God is doing something in his people if we're willing to listen, and I do think we're getting away from sort of that, that mentality of this sort of transactional, you know, kind of relationship with him, that then affects the way we relate to one another. So that, it becomes very much like, I give you a verse and it goes away, I give you some advice, and then we're done. And not that anybody's heart was ever to be that way. But I think we just didn't know what else to do. And that's been one of the beautiful gifts, I think of 2020 is, God has somehow spent time with each of us and is starting to, I think, maybe evolve us away, and get us a chance to hear from people like you who have studied both psychology and therapy, and also good biblical theology and the intersection of all that brings us to a place of spiritual practices that do build on relationship first with him, and then with each other in ways that I think are very, they're freeing, and they're healing and i and i think it's what we desperately need to evolve spiritually.
Molly LaCroix 16:18
Wow. Well, you're preaching to the choir, Pandora, I couldn't agree more, you know, I, it's, it's to me, it's going really back to the very founding foundations of our faith. And in the book, I often return to the great commandment. And, you know, that that was, you know, the crux of the, you know, the Old Testament, and then Jesus reiterated it in the New Testament, and it is relational. And then that's the vision and then my, you know, my effort, my, sort of my, my hope that I can contribute is more of a how to, you know, how do we really love God and one another as ourselves. And my thesis is that the missing dimension is often loving ourselves. There's a fair amount, we probably have the most resources about loving God, they're pretty good chunk of resources about loving one another, but much less about loving ourselves, and even spiritual communities where they shy away from that, that somehow that's not okay. And yet, it's part of the great commandment. Yeah. And, and so I do think that journey often begins inside, it begins with, what are those things inside of me, that block my god given ability to love he has for made in God's image, the God who is love, then love should be our most natural response. And yet, of course, none of us can go through the day without noticing something blocking our love. And that's why I advocate a model that takes us inside and helps us really connect with what's blocking our natural and innate resources, because we are made in God's image. And so we have these resources, but they get blocked. You know,
Pandora Villasenor 18:23
I've been thinking a lot about this lately. And I do think that at least my spiritual pedigree, or background or lineage or, I don't know the best way to say that, has a lot of, I believe an over identification in the sinful nature. And, and it's like adverse, you know, adverse to, so everything is about like avoiding, avoiding the sinful nature, rooting out the sin, rooting it out, identifying and working on it, which only feeds into that sort of performance based works based mentality, which, as an Enneagram Three, I do not need that in my life, like I'm already pre wired to be that way. Right? So it does not help me. And then, but what I'm finding through meeting people like you and reading some really great spiritual formation books, you know, I love Dallas, Willard and Henry Nouwen, and Richard Rohr, I'm just, I'm reading this book, I just started a book called I think her name is Marjorie Thompson. I want to say it's called Soul Feast. I'm reading all these beautiful like books about spiritual practices. And I'm, and I've been doing this for a couple years now, but with Coronavirus, having this time of isolation, I'm realizing, Oh, I get it. I have been too focused on what's wrong with me and not focused enough on what's right. My identity is in Christ. I have been saved like, and it's like I knew all that somewhere. But it wasn't the primary focus. It was it was, it was tertiary to this sort of rooting out sin, you know, idea. So, and listen listeners, I'm not trying to say that we shouldn't be aware of our sin at all. But should it be like our primary focus? Or should our primary focus be first a motivation of, I'm a child of God, I am Beloved, and come from that place of power and identity versus a place of like, I'm a sinner. You know, I don't know if that resonates with you, but
Molly LaCroix 20:22
Oh, very much. So. And, and I think that it's, again, when you look at whether something is driven by fear, or whether something is driven by love, and, and an overemphasis on sinfulness, I think is driven by fear that if we look at church history, you know, the fear is if we don't focus on people's sinfulness, they'll they'll just go live, you know, however they want to live, they'll just, you know, they won't follow any of the rules. There'll be out of control. And so there's this, you know, kind of organizational, let's clamp down on these impulses, people have to do the wrong thing. But if it's it's paradoxical, because if we can regain our understanding of our identity, and and that identity begins, you know, in the very first chapters of the Bible, very first verses of the Bible, that what God created is good, and that we are created in God's image. And that image is my theology professor, his his pithy phrase was, we are image bearers, who sin. So it's not that our core identity is sin, our core identity reflects the image of God, but we do sin, we do do wrong things. And our healing work and our process, our journey of transformations, as Jesus followers, is to be able to both connect with what my model psychotherapy calls "parts of us," connect with parts of us who may be acting out in certain ways, and to develop a relationship with them. Because when you do that, you find out that they have a positive intention. It's a strategy that was adopted as a result of some adversity. And so we experience all humans, it's a fallen world, we all experience adversity, of varying degrees, of course, but nobody on this planet has never not experienced adversity. For one thing, there's no perfect parents. So what did you know? So everyone experiences some degree of adversity has some moments, especially early in life, when we're very vulnerable, to believing things that happen to us are our fault. So we experience disconnect and ruptures in, in, in secure attachment and all these things, which I talk a lot about in a second part of my work. And, and so we have these wounds, we have these places in us that are vulnerable. And then we adopt protective strategies to keep all that buried. And those protective strategies are sometimes the things we would call sin. And that can be being, you know, anything from harshly critical of one another two, abusing a substance or, or some other, you know, form of addiction. I mean, it runs the gamut. Anything, frankly, that we look at and say, well, gosh, that is that is contrary to what I say I believe, and contrary to a life of love.
Pandora Villasenor 23:55
Well, imagine loving and befriending those parts of ourselves, as you describe, you know, it reminded me of as soon as you said that, I thought about the sinful woman in the Bible, the prostitute that Jesus, you know, loved and valued in that story. And I think about when you said, you know, those parts of us that act out even sexual sin, right, like we can tend to, in the church, really not know what to do with sexual sin. So there's a lot of shame, there's a lot of fear, there's even like, I don't even know what to do with you. So I'm gonna treat you like an unbeliever, we're gonna kick you out of the church. I mean, there's all sorts of things that are done around that, rather than really embracing that, wow, this is this is something that maybe there's a sign here that there's something deeper going on a love. And what would Jesus do, he would actually extend love to that person who's acting out in that way. So when you said that, it made me think of that story and made me think about Jesus and how he responded to those misaligned parts of our nature that are there, where we behave less than our God image. Because of trauma because of many other things, you know,
Molly LaCroix 25:05
yeah, yeah, no, that's such a beautiful example Pandora that, you know that, that, in that story, you have this woman who's committing adultery. And, you know, and of course, that's a, you know, a common phenomenon in our in our world. And when you look, you know, that's us, if you look at that as a strategy that is, and it's not to let me be really clear to your listeners, it's not to say that that's okay as a strategy, that, that that's an ideal behavior. But when we start, not with judgment, but with a loving open curiosity, and a wondering of what is provoking this strategy, and, and underneath it, there is a wound, perhaps an experience of abandonment and a desperate desire to connect for the reassurance that one is valued, and, and worthy. You know, a lot of those kinds of underlying negative beliefs that, again, most of us carry, to some degree, they provoke those kinds of strategies to get our needs met.
Pandora Villasenor 26:20
So when people are going through a challenge, like you did in 2020, so here you are, ironically, you are writing this book, God's giving you your message, even as you're writing, and he's giving you challenges to live through to even, to add even more context, to add even more value in lessons, and aha, you know, aha moments into your writing. What, how did you just, kind of take it from, you know, back, or I should say back, to your story? How did you like kind of move through the diagnosis, the, you know, some of the, the, you know, well meaning, but not so supportive remarks, to get to a place where you are today, tell us a little bit about your journey from the challenge to the gifts?
Molly LaCroix 27:02
Yeah, well, it was, it really forced me to walk the talk, you know, so here I am writing a book about, you know, this, what we call the inner family and, and how we respond to adversity and what that does within us and what it provokes outside of us. And then I'm having this experience. And so I really got very focused on connecting with these different parts of me that, you know, the one of the first things I noticed was the grief, you know, that as soon as I got that diagnosis, my, my son and his wife were actually up here with us to escape. It was much easier living up here during COVID than in San Diego. And so they were up here for about three months, because he could work remotely just as easily here. And then my son and my husband were in the kitchen. And I remember walking in there, and I just choked up as soon as I started trying to tell them this phone call, but I had just gotten. And so I noticed, you know what, what was happening for me is the grief would well up. And then I very quickly had a part of me who would shift to gratitude to suppress the grief. So shifting to well, the prognosis is really good. And the dog, of course, the surgeon did this is it when she called me she minimized right away, your prognosis is great, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, so right away, there's no space to feel the feelings. And I think that happens for all of us all the time. And it's, it's, you know, it's cultural, there are a lot of explanations for this that we could go into. But the fact is that we don't create the space for our emotional response to things. So that was the first thing I noticed. And, and then I noticed, for me, the vulnerability of being the one with needs. That's not my, that had not been my typical experience.
Pandora Villasenor 29:14
It's usually not your role. Right? not usually your role in the situations.
Molly LaCroix 29:18
Yeah, that's right, whether professionally or personally, and the vulnerability of that, you know, when when, when we're ill, you know, we use the term needing pejoratively, but when you're ill, you are needy, you know, and I was really blessed to have my sweet daughter in law who actually loves to cook. And, you know, she just, she was there to take care of me. And that was such a gift, but it was, you know, it, I found that, you know, it's risky to express a need. So if there was a day when I was tired or you know, couldn't do what I normally did that was hard for me, it was hard for me to accept that. And then to express the need is also is also vulnerable. Because what if they're not met? know So, and that's again, one of those very common human experiences, you know, that is one of the biggest challenges we have in relationships is being, you know, being willing to be vulnerable to express a need, because there's always the risk that it won't be met.
Pandora Villasenor 30:28
It's a good point. Going back to your first one, I don't want to take your brain off of maybe other things. But I was really curious about the gratitude piece, because I think this is something that I mean, gratitude is magical. I mean, you start writing a gratitude list. And suddenly your your mood elevates like in this magical way. So gratitude is beautiful. But there's a discernment here that I'm picking up on that I'd love for you to expand on, because I think other people might have heard that and go, Wait, I thought gratitude was good. Right, like gratitude works. So tell us a little bit more about that word, gratitude fits into processing?
Molly LaCroix 31:04
Yeah. Thanks for circling back. Because gratitude is awesome. But it's, you know, it's so much of it is timing. And, and it's the energy that we notice in ourselves. So am I expressing gratitude? as a way to stuff something else down? Is it a strategy that's more rooted in fear, than it is in just sort of an open joyful? Oh, my gosh, look at my blessings, you know, it feels different in our bodies, both when we're expressing it about something in our own life. And when, for instance, someone would say to me, oh, isn't it great that you know, that XYZ, you know, that it's not worse. And so, you know, you can feel the energy of someone trying to bypass the vulnerability. And and that's the The tricky thing, a lot of times it's timing, it's both paying attention to what is my intention, or motivation, in this moment of gratitude. And also, what's the timing, because in that, and that's true with the advice piece, too, or information. So it's very it was, it was helpful to me in my journey to gather information. But often, people want to jump in and give you all the information as a way to bypass the emotional response. And so it's slowing down and noticing. That's so much a part of, you know, my, I teach us new spiritual practice in my book based on this way of understanding ourselves, and, and the beginning of it is to slow down and slow down and turn our attention inside. Because otherwise, we just operate out of default, in our default mode.
Pandora Villasenor 33:00
Wow. It's really about slowing down and paying attention. I'm sitting here, I'm literally taking notes right now in my notebook, because this is so helpful for me. And I'm like, Oh, wait, you're not just listening to a podcast, you're actually like hosting one. So stop it. I kind of got lost there for a minute like, yes, yes. Oh, yeah. Wait, I'm the one asking the question.
Molly LaCroix 33:21
So much fun. I love it.
Pandora Villasenor 33:24
So I don't know if, if it would be helpful to give just a little bit of an overview of your spiritual practice it I don't know, you know, obviously, everybody get her book, I'm going to link it. I need to read her book. But you know, can you just give us a couple of highlights for, I mean, you did touch on a few things. But it would be really helpful for the listeners, I want this podcast to be about how to turn your challenges into gifts in some really practical ways. And that's what I love about you, Molly, you have really practical ways for dealing with our challenges and turning them into GIFs.
Molly LaCroix 33:57
Oh, well, thank you. And I'm just fortunate to have have, you know, come across, I'd studied other models of psychotherapy and came across one that just integrates so beautifully with Christian spirituality and with our fundamental, you know, fundamentally, our, our spiritual walk is about transformation. And, and the last chapter of my book is titled, from exploitation to transformation, because it's, you know, sort of my mission in the world is to get to the How to. And so I think it might make a little bit more sense if we have the time for me to give a little bit of an overview of the model psychotherapy I use before I talk about the spiritual practice, that'd be great. Because then it would make more sense. So one way I introduced this and integrate with Christian spirituality is to go to that well known verse that, where the Apostle Paul laments, I do not understand what I do for what I want to do. I do not do, but what I hate I do. That's Romans 7:15 for anybody who wants to look it up. And it's even pithier in the message, which says, what I don't understand about myself is that I decide one way, but then I act another doing things I absolutely despise.
Pandora Villasenor 35:09
I love that version.
Molly LaCroix 35:11
Yeah, exactly. And so we all have these inner conflicts, and we notice a part of me wants to do this or not do that anytime we make a decision, right? I want to do this or no, I want to do that. And, and that's, you know, it even becomes more, I think, impactful when we've done something that we regret. And we might hear a critical voice in us saying, I'm a terrible person. But when we have this perspective, that, that a part of me did something that I know is not, is not congruent with my core values, that is very different than thinking, I'm a terrible person. And that difference, open space for grace, it opens more space for the spirit, and it and it opens more space for connection. And so just, you know, taking something that I could talk for an hour about, and bringing it to five minutes, the perspective of this model, it's called the Internal Family Systems model. And so the perspective is that when we get curious and notice inside, that we actually have a family, with different family members who have different roles, and that there's a leader. And then ideally, we lead our life, from this kind of grounded, if you want to think of it as your soul, or whatever terminology makes sense. But it's leader of the family is both drawing on our innate resources that we possess, because we're created in God's image, and drawing on the power of the Holy Spirit. And, and, you know, so that when we can lead this in our family, drawing on those resources, we have this harmonious blend of, of, you know, talents and abilities and qualities that that all make up who we are uniquely are meant to be. The challenge with life in a fallen world is that adversity happens. And so some parts of us who have experienced adversity, are wounded. And that those wounded ones are a threat to the system seem to be a threat to the system, because when they surface we can be flooded with pain, and flooded with, you know, distorted beliefs about ourselves. And so because God created us is very adaptive. We are there parts of us take on protective strategies to try to what we call exile, the wounded ones. And so we all have a team of protectors, and they work hard to keep the painful stuff buried. So we can just get through life. And some of them work proactively to sort of manage our appearance, manage how we show up in life, manage what people think of us. So guess what we call them managers. Others, sometimes life happens and pain surfaces so fast. And then we have another team of protectors that are like the first responders, they come in to push it, push it back down to numb it, to distract us from it, to disconnect us from it. And so they're like our team of firefighters. And at the more extreme end of some of that is, say, substance abuse. So the part of a system that uses a substance to numb pain would be a firefighter. And so basically, we come into this world with this lovely combination of qualities, reflecting God's image and parts of us that make us who we uniquely are. And then life happens and the system gets burdened, and it gets burdened with pain. And it gets burdened with these strategies that are very well intentioned, but they're all driven by fear. And they block our wonderful innate qualities, our love, our creativity, our compassion, our courage, our confidence, our curiosity, our calm, there are eight C's. And, and so our, our healing journey, our transformational journey is about releasing the constraints to what's already there. And so kind of like we were talking about earlier, Pandora rather than seeing us as broken sinners, we see us as having all this potential as a beloved, you know, one created in God's image, and we just our work is to release the constraints and that happened. In relationship. And so the practice is to build relationships with these parts of ourselves.
Pandora Villasenor 40:08
Oh, how interesting.
Molly LaCroix 40:09
Yes, Uh huh. Yeah. And so and so transitioning into the spiritual practice, unless you want to ask any questions about them all to clarify.
Pandora Villasenor 40:18
No, no, that was that was a good overview. I did a little research before we got on today to read about that. And so I think you nailed it spot on. But yeah, tell us about your spiritual practice a little bit more.
Molly LaCroix 40:30
Yeah. So I, I introduce all of this in the book, and, and in the, in the chapters where I'm getting into the model, I have exercises so people can begin to connect to go inside. So the first step is really, just to create a quiet environment in our external context, so we can turn our attention inside. And, and honestly, this is not so mystical, and woowoo. Because most of us do that, when we pray, you know, we tend to close our eyes, we tend to go inside. And you know, and if anybody's done any form of meditation, that will be familiar. What's different about this approach is we're going inside with the intention to connect with parts of ourselves. And, and so it's usually easiest to do when something's provoked us, when, when we've gotten reactive about something. And in like, we can feel it in our body. And that it's ideal if we can take a moment and pause, and we call it in this model, a U turn, y o u turn. So taking our attention off the externals, and bringing it to the internals, and just noticing what's there. And it would be super easy if we only had one part show up at a time. It's a little more challenging than that, because usually, there are multiple parts that show up. And also there might be one that's afraid, and one that's critical, and one that's angry, or whatever. And we do have to do a little negotiating just like you would if you had a room full of people, and you wanted to speak to them one at a time, have to do a little negotiating, I'm going to get to you, I know you're here too, you have something valuable to say. But I need to start over here. Can I start over here? Is that okay? You know, and one of the things I try to remind people is that this we know how to do a relationship as humans. And this is no different. We're just taking all those skills we have and bringing them inside. And just it's, you know, I mentioned briefly there, these eight c qualities that the the individuals, his name is Dr. Richard Schwartz who develop this model. And, you know, and he kept noticing these different qualities that would emerge when all these other burdened parts would separate. He just kept noticing these qualities, and it's really handy that they all begin with C, it is not an exhaustive list. Because we can think of the fruit of the Spirit, we can think of any facet of who God is. But curiosity is on that list, and it's a superpower. It is, so often not what we start with. But when we can bring that genuine open curiosity to an inner, to our inner world, and begin to just ask questions. "Oh, what are you hoping for? How are you trying to help me? Why did you show up right now?" You know, that those kinds of things. And and so we, you know, we we do a little bit of work to get to one at a time. And then we get curious, and that's the befriending piece, just getting to know it like we would any other person in our life.
Pandora Villasenor 43:59
Reminds me of there's that isn't there this model something inquiry? Do you know, do you know what I'm talking about? There's a an inquiry model that's about curiosity. And it's not. It's not this model. It's not about going in, but it's about relating to other people. I think it's called appreciative inquiry. I learned about it in a workshop at one point at a conference. But it reminds me of that, which is more of an interpersonal model, but to think about doing that with yourself, like really having a relationship with yourself, going inward and being curious. Yes, I feel is very underrated. And I even as you're saying it, and I'm like, wow, I don't spend enough time being curious about . . . I spend a lot of time doing emotional processing and trying to understand the why but I don't think about it in terms of being curious. I think that makes it a little lighter even, I think a little lighter, of a way to bring yourself into an awareness of what's going on inside.
Molly LaCroix 44:53
Absolutely. It's It's It's more loving, really. It's very respectful. You know, so when you even think in a relationship when someone tells you something, versus asking you something, how different that feels, you know, you know, what do you think about this? You know, and, and they, you know, I just to be clear, all of this inner work because I know people can say, well, gosh, that, you know, navel gazing, and there are a lot of things going on in the world today. And why don't you know, why would we want to make time to do that. But it facilitates the external relationships with God and one another. And so when you think about our context, for instance, so if somebody, so I'm writing a chapter for a book, that's an edited book that will feature a variety of organizations working to heal our divides, and, and so my contribution is going to be, we have to go to the divides within us. So, you know, if if I'm going to be an ally in this world, I am a, to your listeners, I'm a white woman, if I'm going to be an ally, I need to get very intentional about connecting with any parts of me that hold racism, because it's pretty impossible to be in this world, and in my particular setting, and not have that. And Dr. Schwartz wrote a beautiful article about this and shared a lot about his own journey. And, you know, the first thing you're going to encounter, of course, is a part of you says, oh, that can't be me. I'm a good person, I can't have any, I can't possibly have any part of me that that holds racism. But there you go with a block.
Pandora Villasenor 46:49
Denial.
Molly LaCroix 46:49
So there there ends the possibility, right,
Pandora Villasenor 46:52
you can't even begin to, you can't even begin to work on something if you're denying that it exists.
Molly LaCroix 46:56
Exactly, exactly. And so it's being intentional about and whether it's racism, or any other, any other thing that could you know, whether it's racism, or homophobia or whatever we might hold that would block our ability to connect with another person, in their humanity in our common humanity in a loving way. And so that's one really powerful way that this model, I think, is critical for where our world is right now.
Pandora Villasenor 47:26
And where I cut you off was you were just about to talk about befriending, befriending those parts of ourselves, being curious, and then you were moving into befriending, and then I sort of went back to the curiosity piece, so keep going. Yeah, tell us more.
Molly LaCroix 47:41
You know, befriending is something that I think is a it's like a daily practice. Is just connecting with who's there. Ultimately, in a therapeutic setting, the process of that we use is that we first befriend these protective parts of us, because they're like the guards at the gate. And if we're going to heal our wounds, we can't storm the gates, we need their permission, we need them to open the gates, they we need to establish trust. And so we befriend them. And and we pulled out hope, you let them know, because you know, when we find out, tell me more about this job you're doing, when we are befriending, you know? Do you like the job you're doing? A lot of times they say no, but they don't think they have any choice. Because they started this job back when something awful happened. And they don't know they they think awful is still present day, you know, so so they're stuck in the past as the wounded parts of us are. And so they don't think it's safe to stop doing their job. And of course, they're they're going to be on the lookout to see if that's what our agenda is. And that's not our agenda. Our agenda is not, they're going, our hope is that they will come to a point where they decide they can give the job up because it's safe to do so. But that happens when those vulnerable ones have been healed. And so we befriend the protectors, we gain their trust, and we take as long as that takes. And then with that trust, we can access those wounded vulnerable parts and, and in my book, one of the things I say to people is on our own, probably the most we can do is make contact with those vulnerable parts. Often it will take the skill and support of a therapist trained in this model to do the full, what we call unburdening and healing of those wounds. But if something surfaces that is painful, that is clearly vulnerable, whether it's painful emotions like grief panic, shame, our negative beliefs, I'm stupid, I'm ugly, I'm unworthy, I'm unlovable, you know the litany of those. If any of that surfaces, and we know this about ourselves, we can at least turn our loving attention to it, and say, I see you, I feel you, I'm sorry. I'm with you
Pandora Villasenor 50:25
So powerful
Molly LaCroix 50:27
It is. And what we notice is that connection almost always leads to some calm. And, and then you know, no, again, there, I do describe the full process of healing in my book. But I also caution that for the deeper healing, it might be necessary to have that supportive, you know, skilled person accompany you.
Pandora Villasenor 50:55
Absolutely. And I would love to put your website as a link, as a resource in the show notes, because so many people might listen to this and be in that situation where they might need that additional support. And I believe, like I said earlier in this episode, that, you know, going through the panic attacks and the anxiety right now with my husband kind of going through that right now, I am realizing just how much this pandemic has brought up for people, people need resources right now, like never before, to help them navigate all the feelings and fractured parts of ourselves that are, that are coming to the surface. You know, you talk about those protective parts of ourselves. For many people right now, those protective parts of themselves aren't working as well, because they've had to work in overdrive because they are dealing with, you know, all the fears of this virus and you know, "will I get it and who's going to get it next." And, you know, I lived I was in the same house with somebody who had it and I tested negative and it was such a fearful time just oh, my gosh, every every little sneeze because, of course you know, we get Santa Ana winds here in LA and, and all the dust kicks up. And so my allergies kick in, but I think it's Coronavirus, and then yeah, all the political upheaval and all of the divide and all of the things that we had to give up that we were used to doing, all of these things, many people are finding themselves just feeling broken. And if that's you, listener, please go to Molly's website and some of the other upcoming episodes that are going to be more, less of just the lay people but more of the professionals sharing their personal journeys and their personal stories of overcoming challenges for gifts. But then also, they're very practical ways to help because I love sharing these stories, but I myself am not a therapist, so I'm very gracious, or grateful, I should say, I'm very grateful. I might be gracious, I try to be gracious, grateful to have professionals like you, I will say a few years back, I went through this and my and I write about this in my book and some of my blog posts and episodes have been about it. But I went through a very similar journey where I had reached the end of my ability to cope with things the way I always coped with them. And the way I became aware of that, that and I didn't have the language that you're using, but I it sounds very similar. I had this part of myself that had been in, that had learned to survive by being such an independent, hard working, you know, productive, you know, ambitious, driven, goal driven and it got me off of welfare. It got me as a teen mom to get an education. It had served me so well. And yeah, and then I realized if I wanted to go any further though it would not serve me any further like it was not going to be helpful to still operate. I needed to operate with a new paradigm. One like I wanted to have this like life of creativity and confidence. But instead I
Molly LaCroix 54:02
One of those C words.
Pandora Villasenor 54:03
Yeah, some of those C words, but instead I was like, riddled with, that protector in me that was like, nope, we can't take risks. Nope, we're gonna stick on this path. Education. Corporate. We're gonna stick on these like these paths that we you know what? I watched Falcon Crest and Dallas as a kid and I learned I guess this is what I need to do. I need to pursue some you know, endeavor in some industry, you know? Yeah, I mean, I learned it from TV because TV raised me right so I'm like, Okay, I'm just going on this path that this some part of me watched TV and or listened to rap music and all the things about, in the 80s, about achievement and developed my game plan for life. But I realized like it actually the life I want. Yes, it does include abundance and all those things but but part of that abundance comes from this like ability to be a part of God's purpose for me. His calling for my life and I knew it was going to take curiosity and creativity and, and calm and all those C words. But I couldn't I couldn't do it, I had to face that part of myself. And so yeah, so I totally I think I relate to what you're sharing in this model and how it would have been very helpful for me at that time. Instead, I struggled through it and many other ways, but I got, I still got to the place that I am today, you know, which is
Molly LaCroix 55:26
Thankfully there are many paths.
Pandora Villasenor 55:27
Yeah. Yeah.
Molly LaCroix 55:29
And you know, and that's such a great example, though Pandora is that, you know, that you that part of you was leading. And in this model, what we want to do is, is not, you know, jettison that part from the system, it brings wonderful things. But to shift so that you're leading from these innate resources, leading from this heart, where you're in harmony with Holy Spirit. So you take it, it's a team member, who's contributing wonderful gifts. But, you know, when it hijacks, and, and runs things, you'll notice as you did, you know, other things fall by the wayside, and things are unbalanced. And, you know, and on and on.
Pandora Villasenor 56:16
Well, and God, God will help make that, like, if you want to grow, this is what happened to me anyway, I wanted to grow, I wanted to be more. I wanted to live out this purpose. When I say more, this woman who I wanted to be this woman who heard from God more who lived out the purpose that he had for my life, who I had this like greatness in me, you know, like, but from a deep place, not from this, like, you know, capitalistic production space. And, and he, he got me to a place where I, he, I could hear from him, and he bought me to that place through pain, which is what birthed the idea for All Gifts. So whew, wow, going all the way back, he led me to this place, but it started with pain and suffering. I was physically ill. So I say that to say, you know, these challenges that we go through, including the one that we're all globally going through right now ,is I 100% believe they are gifts, because if you really embrace whatever it is, and really fully process it all the way through and allow all this to come to the surface and heal, you get to this place where you do, you indeed find your message, you find your purpose, you find meaning and, and that's the story. You know, that's where All Gifts came from, was from this time of, you know, basically being knocked on my butt. And all I could do was was face my pain, you know? So
Molly LaCroix 57:41
Yeah, well, and that's, that is exactly what I'm talking about. It's that process of being able to connect with that pain so that we can heal it. And so that we don't have all these things blocking our ability to live out our purpose, and the many manifestations of that, and to draw on the resources God gave us, you know. He didn't set us up for failure. He set us up for success. He gave us what we need.
Pandora Villasenor 58:08
Wow, I, I could talk to you forever. But we've been going for an hour. And I always try to promise my listeners, actually, I've never said this out loud. But in my head, I always say I'm going to do an hour. And I'm going to go beyond an hour because I want you know, people not to feel like these go on and on. But wow, what a great conversation this has been. If you don't mind, I would love to just just ask you one more question before we get to just how people can find you, how they can find your book. But if you just had one more thing you wanted to express to our listeners today, just something to leave them with during these unprecedented times. I said, I wouldn't say that word. But there I did it again. What would it be? What would you like to leave them with?
Molly LaCroix 58:46
That you're loved, and you're worthy. And I am with you in spirit on your journey of healing. And God, God is, that is, you know, Jesus's verses in Luke four, when he announced his ministry. He came to free us, to heal us. And that's his vision. And there is a path. So I'm cheering you on.
Pandora Villasenor 59:21
Thank you, thank you for being here and for being a resource to us. So tell us how can we find you? How can we find your book and, and just any other resources that you have for us?
Molly LaCroix 59:33
Yeah, well, my website is Molly Lacroix.com. And my last name. I was so thankful for the sparkling water because not everybody can pronounce my name and recognizes my name. But in case you haven't seen that sparkler, it's l a capital C r o x. So mollylacroix.com and on Instagram at mollylacroixlmft. And I post about this model and, and so that's kind of support to helping people use it. So those are the two ways. So you'll see on my my website, you'll find links to my book. And you know, links to the IFS Institute. So it's IFS-institute.com will tell more about the IFS model and can help you find an IFS therapist in your area.
Pandora Villasenor 1:00:34
Oh, great. I'll link that in the show notes as well. That's fabulous. Thank you so much. This has been so helpful. I wouldn't even be surprised if we did a part two conversation because I just I want to get so much more into like the model and your story and the ways that you help people. So maybe we'll have to do a part two down the road. But in the meantime, thank you for being here, Molly, and thank you for spreading what is nothing, which is nothing short of miraculous light and healing for people at this very crucial time.
Molly LaCroix 1:01:03
Well, well, it's my blessing.
Pandora Villasenor 1:01:05
Thank you so much for having me. And thank you listeners for tuning in to the All Gifts Podcast. Remember everything that happens, no matter how dark it feels, no matter how bad it seems, can be a gift. Until next time. Thank you for listening to the All Gifts podcast. I'm your host Pandora Villasenor. I have a passion for coaching people to overcome the challenges in their lives by helping them to discover ways to transform those challenges into gifts, gifts of accomplishment, perseverance, strength and resilience. But most of all, peace and self love. Go to allgiftsbook.com to join us for exciting updates on the launch of all gifts the book, to sign up for our newsletter and other freebies. That's allgiftsbook.com